Comment by programjames

I want to make it clear that the main issue is anti-epistemology. Trusting authority figures on "the science" isn't much different than trusting authority figures on "the gods", but there is a big difference between how the two schools of thought investigate new ideas. Religions take their axioms as inviolable, while science usually treats them as convenient beliefs until better ones come along.

I'm less worried about people being scientifically ignorant than people who lack the ability to think through ideas (specifically, most religions have built-in thought-stoppers such as "doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith"). For example, Socrates was a great thinker, and even though he was terribly ignorant by today's standards, I wouldn't be worried if our society was composed of people like him. I am worried about people who have literally been indoctrinated out of the capacity for reason.

Ah, I on the other hand have met many individuals who have been indoctrinated out of a capacity to reason. I grew up in a town with a relatively high population of Mormons. Their reasoning capacities are mostly fine when it comes to science/work/etc., but very stunted when it comes to discussing their religion (which is important because it defines their politics). You'll essentially get conversations that go like this:

- Why do you think gay people shouldn't kiss?

| Because it's wrong.

- Why is it wrong?

| Gay people can't have children / homosexuality is bad.

- Why is that bad?

| The Bible says it's important to have children / The Bible says so.

- So, if you didn't think God was real, or the Bible was accurate, you would think it's okay?

| Eh, but I know it's true. I know acting on gay feelings is wrong. [Counterfactuals don't make sense when the counterfactual is impossible.]

- How do you know this?

| Well, I prayed about it.

- Okay, but lots of people pray and think their religion is the right one.

| Yeah, but you'd expect the TRUE religion to have <specific features about Mormonism>. And only Mormonism has that.

- Couldn't a Muslim or Hindu say something similar?

| No, they don't have all the <specific features>, just some of them. Like, sure, other religions have some of the truth, but we have all of it! Aren't modern prophets great?

- Well, I'd expect a true religion to not have <specific flaws>.

| Those aren't true. Our founder didn't have sex with a bunch of teenagers.

- The second guy, Brigham Young, did, didn't he?

| Um, well, that was normal for the time.

- It really wasn't. You can look at the census data, and even though some teenagers married other teenagers, almost none of them were marrying men 20 years their senior.

| Well, God commanded it, so it must have been alright.

- How do you know God commanded it, and your leader didn't just make this up?

| Because I know the Book of Mormon is true and I have a testimony of Joseph Smith!

- Okay, why do you think so?

| It says right there at the end of the Book of Mormon that you can pray about it to know it is true. And I did, and I've had so many personal experiences that reaffirm my faith.

- Okay, but lots of people pray and think their religion is the right one. Couldn't a Muslim or Hindu say something similar?

| No, they don't have all the <specific features>! Look, I don't know what you've been reading about Mormons, but you can't expect to get accurate sources from random internet sites. If you want to know the truth, you have to read the Book of Mormon and ask God. The devil will try to lead you astray, but you just need to cultivate a seed of faith and hold onto it until it grows into an unshakeable foundation.

- Um... that's circular reasoning. How do you know that's how you can get the truth?

| Oh, I see. You're some anti-Mormon, aren't you? You were never interested to begin with, you were just trying to trick me up. Well I don't want to hear your bigotry anymore. All my friends/family who are Mormon are the best people I know, and even if you don't believe in my religion, you have to acknowledge its fruits are good.

- Didn't we get into this conversation because you said gay people shouldn't be allowed to kiss each other? That isn't a "good fruit".

| No, according to my religion it is. God has a plan, you just have to open up your heart and believe.

aliasxneo 3 days ago

Well, regarding that concern, we are in total agreement. However, I have many religious friends, and none of them have demonstrated being indoctrinated out of a capacity to reason (and yes, a few were homeschooled).

I'm not suggesting these individuals do not exist, but I find it very troubling to make blanket statements like the GP's. As I said, it's a stereotype I often see on HN, and I think it's very distasteful as it eliminates an entire group of people from the conversation because "they can't reason."

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programjames 19 hours ago

Ah, I on the other hand have met many individuals who have been indoctrinated out of a capacity to reason. I grew up in a town with a relatively high population of Mormons. Their reasoning capacities are mostly fine when it comes to science/work/etc., but very stunted when it comes to discussing their religion (which is important because it defines their politics). You'll essentially get conversations that go like this:
- Why do you think gay people shouldn't kiss?
| Because it's wrong.
- Why is it wrong?
| Gay people can't have children / homosexuality is bad.
- Why is that bad?
| The Bible says it's important to have children / The Bible says so.
- So, if you didn't think God was real, or the Bible was accurate, you would think it's okay?
| Eh, but I know it's true. I know acting on gay feelings is wrong. [Counterfactuals don't make sense when the counterfactual is impossible.]
- How do you know this?
| Well, I prayed about it.
- Okay, but lots of people pray and think their religion is the right one.
| Yeah, but you'd expect the TRUE religion to have <specific features about Mormonism>. And only Mormonism has that.
- Couldn't a Muslim or Hindu say something similar?
| No, they don't have all the <specific features>, just some of them. Like, sure, other religions have some of the truth, but we have all of it! Aren't modern prophets great?
- Well, I'd expect a true religion to not have <specific flaws>.
| Those aren't true. Our founder didn't have sex with a bunch of teenagers.
- The second guy, Brigham Young, did, didn't he?
| Um, well, that was normal for the time.
- It really wasn't. You can look at the census data, and even though some teenagers married other teenagers, almost none of them were marrying men 20 years their senior.
| Well, God commanded it, so it must have been alright.
- How do you know God commanded it, and your leader didn't just make this up?
| Because I know the Book of Mormon is true and I have a testimony of Joseph Smith!
- Okay, why do you think so?
| It says right there at the end of the Book of Mormon that you can pray about it to know it is true. And I did, and I've had so many personal experiences that reaffirm my faith.
- Okay, but lots of people pray and think their religion is the right one. Couldn't a Muslim or Hindu say something similar?
| No, they don't have all the <specific features>! Look, I don't know what you've been reading about Mormons, but you can't expect to get accurate sources from random internet sites. If you want to know the truth, you have to read the Book of Mormon and ask God. The devil will try to lead you astray, but you just need to cultivate a seed of faith and hold onto it until it grows into an unshakeable foundation.
- Um... that's circular reasoning. How do you know that's how you can get the truth?
| Oh, I see. You're some anti-Mormon, aren't you? You were never interested to begin with, you were just trying to trick me up. Well I don't want to hear your bigotry anymore. All my friends/family who are Mormon are the best people I know, and even if you don't believe in my religion, you have to acknowledge its fruits are good.
- Didn't we get into this conversation because you said gay people shouldn't be allowed to kiss each other? That isn't a "good fruit".
| No, according to my religion it is. God has a plan, you just have to open up your heart and believe.

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