Comment by gruez

Comment by gruez 3 days ago

>You want this to be complicated so badly, but it's not.

>Hidden limits are an anti-pattern.

>There is no counter-argument.

Here's a counterargument: do you get similarly upset that restaurants advertising "free refills" cut you off after you've been at the place for 12 hours and you dispensed 8L of coke? Explicit limits is how you get "limit one refill per customer", leaving most customers worse off.

Do I think hidden limits are always better? No. It operates on a spectrum, and depends on how many "legitimate" customers are affected by the limit.

Dylan16807 3 days ago

It doesn't sound like the number of refills is the real problem if you're worried about someone staying for 12 hours.

If the rule was "you have to leave after 2 hours" or "after an hour, you get one last refill", that would solve the problem and affect almost nobody else, while being nice and explicit about expectations. (Or cut those numbers in half if you want, it's just an example.)

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gruez 3 days ago

>It doesn't sound like the number of refills is the real problem if you're worried about someone staying for 12 hours.
A butt in seat doesn't cost the business any money as long as it's not displacing any paying customers (ie. the place isn't packed). Soda might be cheap but it's not free, so dispensing 8L of product does cost the business money.
>If the rule was "you have to leave after 2 hours" or "after an hour, you get one last refill", that would solve the problem and affect almost nobody else, while being nice and explicit about expectations. (Or cut those numbers in half if you want, it's just an example.)
See my other point about people riding up the limit. When you institute an explicit limit, you end up having to be more conservative because an explicit limit emboldens people to ride up right against the limit, rather than a fuzzy limit with the expectation that people act "reasonably". Instituting the limits you proposed would cause the problematic customers to chug soda within the allotted time, for instance. It also becomes a hassle for everyone else who's being reasonable. If I'm meeting with some friends after and need to kill an hour or two, I suddenly have to worry about whether I can stay without getting kicked out, etc. Most people, even above-average utilization customers lose out from this, and the only people who benefit are the ones taking advantage to an absurd degree.

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- Dylan16807 3 days ago
  
  > Instituting the limits you proposed would cause the problematic customers to chug soda within the allotted time, for instance.
  How much soda do you think they're going to chug? That sounds weird and rare. I don't think it's a limit where you're going to have a problematic amount of riding.
  > If I'm meeting with some friends after and need to kill an hour or two, I suddenly have to worry about whether I can stay without getting kicked out, etc.
  That's not consistent with the idea that the business is fine with you sitting around for a while. If they're fine with that, they would only limit your refills after a point. That rule should give you no reason to worry about being forced to leave.
  Though is buying a new drink after two hours a big deal in the first place...?
  
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BoorishBears 3 days ago

Ok, so when open a restaurant offering refills of soda for tonight's dinner you can have hidden limits...

And when you build a SaaS that people build entire businesses on, you can state your limits transparently and openly.

Not sure this is the gotcha that you think it is.

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gruez 3 days ago

So you're admitting the principle is fine for restaurants, but not for "SaaS that people build entire businesses on"?

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- BoorishBears 3 days ago
  
  Yes.
  I won't hold them to the same standards, they're not the same thing.
  If you want to wax poetic about drink policies go right on ahead, no push back from me.
  
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