Comment by MarkusWandel

Comment by MarkusWandel 5 days ago

6 replies

Constructing elegant, deeply nested sentences is an art in English as well as German (my first language). But it is an art, more for connoisseurs than those who really need to communicate.

An art that I appreciate more is at the opposite end. Constructing elegant prose out of relatively simple sentences, like Ernest Hemingway.

"He was an old man who fished alone in a skiff in the Gulf Stream and he had gone eighty-four days now without taking a fish. In the first forty days a boy had been with him. But after forty days without a fish the boy's parents had told him that the old man was now definitely and finally salao, which is the worst form of unlucky, and the boy had gone at their orders in another boat which caught three good fish the first week. It made the boy sad to see the old man come in each day with his skiff empty and he always went down to help him carry either the coiled lines or the gaff and harpoon and the sail that was furled around the mast. The sail was patched with flour sacks and, furled, it looked like the flag of permanent defeat."

Long sentences for sure, but is there any nesting in there at all? I can't see any.

antonvs 5 days ago

> is there any nesting in there at all? I can't see any.

There's an enormous amount of nesting in there. However:

1. You probably aren't familiar with the linguistic definition of the term - see e.g. https://www.lancaster.ac.uk/fass/projects/stylistics/topic7/... for a summary

2. Your brain deals with it without you recognizing it

3. Hemingway often avoids punctuation to give the illusion of an un-nested stream.

Here's a version with some of the nesting annotated, just to give an idea of how nested it is. It may look excessive, but in fact it's missing some nesting because I don't have infinite time:

"[He was an old man [who fished alone [in a skiff [in the Gulf Stream]]] and [he had gone eighty-four days now [without taking a fish]].] [In the first forty days [a boy had been with him.]] [But [after forty days [without a fish]] [the boy's parents had told him [that [the old man was now definitely and finally salao, [which is [the worst form [of unlucky]]]]]] and [the boy had gone [at their orders] [in another boat [which caught three good fish [the first week]]]].] [It made the boy sad [to see [the old man come in [each day [with his skiff empty]]]] and [he always went down [to help him carry [either [the coiled lines] or [the gaff and harpoon and [the sail [that was furled [around the mast]]]]]]].] [The sail was patched [with flour sacks] and, [furled], [it looked [like [the flag [of permanent defeat]]]].]"

As an example of missing nesting, "[In the first forty days [a boy had been with him.]]" should be more like "[In [the first forty days]], [a boy] [had been [with him]]."

  • seabass-labrax 4 days ago

    Your definition of nesting is slightly different from what's being used elsewhere in the thread: the article discusses the nesting of clauses, and the essential component of a clause in English is a verb. "in a skiff in the Gulf Stream" isn't a complete clause (and doesn't contain any) because there's no verb. "who fished alone in a skiff in the Gulf Stream" is a clause - to fish is the verb - but still not a complete sentence unless interpreted as a question. I'm sure you know that but the terminology isn't consistent between comments in this thread.

munchler 5 days ago

Yes, using conjunctions to compose small sentences into larger ones is a form of recursive nesting. For example:

"[He was an old man who fished alone in a skiff in the Gulf Stream] and [he had gone eighty-four days now without taking a fish]."

"[It made the boy sad to see the old man come in each day with his skiff empty] and [he always went down to help him carry either the coiled lines or the gaff and harpoon and the sail that was furled around the mast]."

joe5150 5 days ago

The relative clause "which is the worst form of unlucky" is embedded, among other complexities here. Obviously this doesn't make the text less readable, so I don't think nesting per se is the problem.

jcul 5 days ago

It's been so long since I've read this that I can't even remember the plot.

But I remember loving it as a teenager. I must go and reread it soon. That, and For whom the bell tolls, which I can remember slightly clearer.

Keysh 5 days ago

I think there is some, but it’s pretty limited. E.g., “He was an old man [who fished alone in a skiff in the Gulf Stream] and …”