Comment by tombert

Comment by tombert 4 days ago

> Why do you think America can't compete with China, for example, over the long term?

Not saying I necessarily disagree with you, but just to give an example, the US has considerably better labor practices and labor laws than China. It's not perfect but there are protections about making sure people are paid what they're owed, how much you are allowed to work someone, safety protocols, etc. All of those things could, in theory, cost more money and make labor more expensive.

Compare this to nations that don't have the same work protections, where they can pay people peanuts and have them work much longer shifts with effectively no protection (e.g. Foxconn in China [1]).

This might translate to decreased cost, and Americans have made it excruciatingly clear that we're apparently fine with slave labor as long as it doesn't happen within the US.

[1] https://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/chinese-workers-foxc...

bun_at_work 4 days ago

Just calling out that worker protections and increased labor costs seem to be the result of workers making more money. As the work force becomes wealthier, they _need_ less money, and their standards rise. This means their labor becomes more expensive and they demand safer workplaces. They demand more time off. This happened in the USA and is currently happening in China and other low-labor-cost nations.

I think the person you responded to is right. The USA can and should restore its manufacturing base, for many reasons. The whole country would greatly benefit from the return of blue-collar jobs.

I don't have sources for this, but the info is out there.

Also, there are a lot of nuances around this topic that I'm not getting into here. Just want to acknowledge that...

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tombert 4 days ago

Sure, but it's worth inquiring why the jobs left in the first place.
There's probably a few hundred reasons, but I think the core one was "manufacturing in China is cheaper because labor is cheaper."
Even if China starts demanding better worker protection (and they should! I am actually fine with my products costing more if I have a guarantee that the workers were treated well), I think that there's still a reasonably high chance that manufacturing would still move to another developing country that doesn't.

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- bun_at_work 4 days ago
  
  The why is not trivial to explain, but it's related to the petrodollar system. It's good for the USA if we create markets with countries that are developing by moving manufacturing there, because it helps them acquire the dollars that they need to buy energy on the international market. This helps the USA maintain global hegemony.
  Again, my comment here is super simplified.
  
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- CPLX 4 days ago
  
  The core reasons the jobs left are industrial and monetary policies.
  Or, said another way, because the Chinese prioritized and subsidized manufacturing growth and we did the opposite.
  Why? Because it made some specific Americans very rich. It also ruined the lives of many other Americans. While making the country much less resilient to shocks or conflicts.
  Which is, of course, the problem.
  
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tehjoker 4 days ago

Foxconn is a Taiwanese company. China's revolution is about delivering for workers. I don't get where ppl are coming up with "slave labor" when it is American allies possibly operating in China's SEZ that are doing the bad stuff.

It's also simultaneously sanctimonious sounding when development is very difficult and America sacrificed three generations to industrial capitalism, stole half a continent of land, and used slaves to do our own development depending on how you count inputs to the process.

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tombert 4 days ago

Slavery was wrong even in the 1700s and and 1800s. I wish it hadn't happened, but until we have a time machine there's not a lot we can do about it.
Just because the US has committed major sins in the past doesn't mean we should be slap-happy about other countries repeating those sins.
It might be "sanctimonious", but I don't think "I'm against slave labor everywhere" is an especially brave take.

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- tehjoker 4 days ago
  
  I am not sold that this is a real thing in China in the first place. The main citation I can find is for the U.S. fake story about Xianjiang that is debunked on cursory inspection.
  
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