teruakohatu 10 months ago

The latest AirPods have usb-c, with the higher tier also including wireless charging. If there was ever a device category to remove usb-c it would be AirPods (which would still be a terrible idea)

  • derefr 10 months ago

    I would argue the opposite: AirPods are a pure "client" device — they need to be connected to by something, they don't connect to something; and they have no display, input method, or other means to initiate/change Bluetooth pairing, if the state of the firmware somehow gets in a mucked-up state and they need to be flashed. The only possible way to recover broken AirPods is via tethered recovery.

    An iPhone is the opposite: both a "client" and a "host", with plenty of options (in theory) for interactively initiating and configuring a wireless recovery boot. Almost capable enough (again, in theory) to be used for standalone debugging of its own hardware faults (like you'd do with a PC using a live USB image.) For 99% of faults, an iPhone should be capable of non-tethered recovery — if Apple would just write the firmware so as to enable that.

    And the other 1% of the time, you've probably got at least one failed critical hardware component preventing early boot. At which point "flashing the OS" would be the least of your concern; and instead, you'd just take the thing into the Genius Bar, and they'd open it up, and then either tap into an interior debugging interface (as presumably they'll leave the lightning debug pins exposed as something like JTAG pads); or they'd temporarily swap the mainboard out into an "everything but the mainboard" recovery harness, flash it there, and then stick it back into the phone. At which point they could then use the recovered base firmware's recovery mode to QC the rest of the hardware!

    • dwaite 10 months ago

      > if the state of the firmware somehow gets in a mucked-up state and they need to be flashed. The only possible way to recover broken AirPods is via tethered recovery.

      There is no process to reflash AirPods, at least one known outside of Apple's official repair channel.

      But there's also no way you can diagnose you _need_ such a software recovery mechanism.

      USB-C might help if there was a feature to trigger a firmware update, but there is not.

      > [iPhone is] almost capable enough (again, in theory) to be used for standalone debugging of its own hardware faults (like you'd do with a PC using a live USB image.) For 99% of faults, an iPhone should be capable of non-tethered recovery — if Apple would just write the firmware so as to enable that.

      Sort of. Any diagnostic and recovery tools available at boot time are going to be designed to be non-privileged, so there are a number of things (such as validating the integrity of the encrypted user data partition) that just aren't going to be possible. That locks you down to basically rudimentary hardware validation, but a consumer and even authorized apple repair are unlikely to be able to fix hardware issues that interfere with the main OS boot but allow a recovery process to boot.

      • derefr 10 months ago

        > Any diagnostic and recovery tools available at boot time are going to be designed to be non-privileged, so there are a number of things (such as validating the integrity of the encrypted user data partition) that just aren't going to be possible. That locks you down to basically rudimentary hardware validation.

        Eh, sort of. Remember that most users have an iCloud Recovery Key enabled. Meaning that Apple could design a non-tethered restore process for iOS that looks like:

        1. The device boots into recovery mode; asks the user to configure a wi-fi connection (if none of the ones it has persisted in NVRAM are available.)

        2. The device reaches out to Apple, hitting an "I'm a broken device; help me!" endpoint, referencing the iCloud account the device is signed into, and signing the request with the device's root TPM key.

        3. Apple validates that the message is from a device that is registered to the given user's iCloud account.

        4. Apple sends back a signed payload containing: a device-root-TPM-key-encrypted copy of the device's own disk encryption key (the iCloud Recovery Key), and some amount of "privileged restore" logic (at minimum, just an XPC daemon for the restore image to load and run as root, with a code-signed capabilities manifest that grants the device-shipped client-side of that XPC connection the authority to make changes through it; or, at maximum, a whole second-stage recovery firmware for the restore image to reboot into.)

        5. The resulting boot would have the same privileges to modify the on-disk system that an OS firmware update does. But, unlike an OS update, the boot that results by combining this Apple-delivered privileged payload, with the existing restore image, would be interactive. Just like macOS's Remote Recovery image, it would give the user access to some of the same management functionality that Apple would use to repair the filesystem, forensically archive + wipe the disk, repair user permission databases, etc.

        6. However, this privileged recovery experience, would still ultimately be a DRMed kiosk experience. (The tool would have full power to access or modify your on-disk system, but the tool wouldn't give you any way to modify the running tool itself. Within the OS of the recovery experience, you're still an unprivileged user. Like running VM software on ChromeOS, where you have root in the VM but not on the host.) Especially, since the disk is decrypted enough to get at the keychain, regular authentication methods could be used to enforce that the device's owner is present and consenting to the repair — i.e. the device could require a "sign-in" with iCloud password + TouchID/FaceID/etc. — just like when first making a purchase on the App Store on a new device. (If the disk is so corrupted that this info is unavailable, then the device could fall back to "authorize with another device on your iCloud account" auth; and if that too wouldn't work, then it'd probably tell you to stop what you're doing and go to an Apple Store so they can identity-verify you.)

        7. At the same time, Apple could add special handling into the Secure Enclave for a sort of PKI latch storage type: "anyone with the pubkey can set latch k to a value v; but only a message signed by the associated privkey can modify/delete the latch k once set." Apple could then make this privileged recovery experience do two things once booted:

        - Tell the Apple servers "consider me de-activated for now; and require an extended activation — with full remote attestation — to reactivate!" Boot would not proceed until the Apple servers confirm the de-activation.

        - Set an on-device TPM latch, using an Apple-provided pubkey.

        (These two actions can be atomic, as a "start non-tethered repair session" endpoint, that both marks the device as de-activated, and returns the pubkey for a new dynamically-generated keypair associated with that repair session in Apple's backend.)

        8. The latch means that the regular on-disk OS won't be allowed to boot again until this recovery process "considers itself complete" — so you can't break out of it mid-job by hard-resetting the device. And the remote de-activation means that, if you were trying to use non-tethered repair on "some random grey-market iPhone" to wipe it and/or scrap it for parts, the device and/or parts would still be considered stolen.

        9. And "extended activation with full remote attestation" means that, when you do finish the recovery process, you wouldn't boot into the regular on-disk OS, but into a special "remote attester" mode (essentially, another type of small-ish factory-shipped recovery volume, that the repair system either has no right to modify, or always puts back after a reformat) that carefully examines and validates the OS to ensure everything is as it should be to enforce security (no rootkits, no jailbreaks) — sending that info to Apple, who then send back activation only if they're happy with what they see. (And if you somehow trick the device into booting into the on-disk OS instead of the remote attester, the on-disk OS will find that it can't activate with Apple; will notice the latch; and will just reboot back to the remote attester to try extended activation.)

        Under this tight set of constraints, you can do whatever you need to do during recovery — you have root on the phone! But you're also forced to put everything back into a valid state, before Apple will be willing to "release" you from that mode back into regular use of the phone.

        (Amusingly enough, Apple could even let this repair image totally break the "paradigm" that iOS normally operates under. The repair image could expose Terminal.app. The repair image could display a desktop when connected to HDMI. Heck, for the iPhone 16, the repair image could be a somewhat-neutered copy of macOS [similar to macOS Recovery] running on the M-series processor, where you're expected to connect a keyboard/mouse/display to it using a USB-C dock! As long as that sort of stuff is only available in this repair experience — and this repair experience is in turn useless as a phone [or as a general-purpose computer] — then exposing these capabilities during repair wouldn't be sales-cannibalizing.)

        Also, if you think about it, this is in spirit basically the same "workflow" as Apple's Self Service [Hardware] Repair process — but without the series of phone calls being required to validate that you're actually someone who was asked to repair that device (instead of some rando who bought the phone on the grey market) and to sign off on your repair "session" as completed at the end.

        In this case, you're repairing your own device that Apple knows you own because it's listed on your iCloud account, so Apple already has all the info they need to auto-authorize the "repair"; and you're purely doing a firmware/OS repair, not a hardware repair, so the device itself can do the "signing off" at the end.

    • ssl-3 10 months ago

      > I would argue the opposite: AirPods are a pure "client" device — they need to be connected to by something, they don't connect to something; and they have no display, input method, or other means to initiate/change Bluetooth pairing, if the state of the firmware somehow gets in a mucked-up state and they need to be flashed. The only possible way to recover broken AirPods is via tethered recovery.

      Huh?

      The charging case (which is an integral part of the system known as "Airpods") has a display (LED indicator) and an input method (a pushbutton).

  • ShadowRegent 10 months ago

    I'm not so sure. One of the potential benefits of removing ports from the iPhone is improved water resistance (personally, I'd still rather have the port). I don't foresee going swimming with my AirPods case.

cdchn 10 months ago

I think a big part of the reason (maybe the only reason?) they went to USB-C is because they were legally compelled to by European regulations, not sure if they can then about-face on that just by removing the port.

  • Jtsummers 10 months ago

    > think a big part of the reason (maybe the only reason?) they went to USB-C is because they were legally compelled to by European regulations

    It wasn't the only reason, it was inevitable even without the regulations. They'd already switched their laptops to USB-C in 2015 (?), and the iPad in 2018. The phones and some accessories (keyboards, mice, charging cases for AirPods and such) were the last remaining Lightning devices. All the regulations did, if anything, was set a deadline that was probably internal no more than one or two years past when they made the switch.

    • Dylan16807 10 months ago

      They didn't switch normal iPads until 2022.

      I really don't understand the argument that it was inevitable when they spent more than five years shipping lightning on phones and most iPads and USB-C on laptops. Maybe they would have switched on their own, maybe not. But they were clearly not just moving USB-C through their product line piece by piece, or everything would have had it many years earlier.

      • dwaite 10 months ago

        Apple started shipping exclusively USB-C cables/chargers with iPhones with the 11 in 2019. There's certainly a case to be made that they should have done that earlier (iPhone X or even back with the iPhone 7).

        It is perhaps worth noting that the USB-IF and Apple had a "complex" relationship for many years, and to this day Apple still doesn't sell a single 1st party device or cable which is USB certified.

        • cdchn 10 months ago

          >Apple started shipping exclusively USB-C cables/chargers with iPhones with the 11 in 2019.

          Did they? I thought they only moved to USB-C with the iPhone 15 in 2023. Thats what Wikipedia shows me as well.

          Edit: Oh you mean the _charger_ was USB-C with a USB-C to Lightning cable. The actual phone didn't get a USB-C port until iPhone 15.

      • Jtsummers 10 months ago

        There are really only six options:

        1. Keep using Lightning

        2. Update Lightning

        3. Switch to another proprietary connector

        4. Switch to a standard but non-USB-C connector

        5. Switch to full wireless

        6. Switch to USB-C

        (1) Makes no sense, they were going to switch to something eventually. If anyone doubts that and thinks Lightning was going to stick around forever, they don't live in the real world. It's so far from reasonable it's not worth considering. Lighting is worse than USB-C for data rates and power, it was outdated years before they made the switch.

        (2) Could have made sense but they would have done it earlier if it was in their plans. They could have done that around '20-'21 and given a "Look, see, our new connector is 10x faster than USB-C and fast charges in half the time!" But it would have to match or beat USB-C to make any sense. Maintaining compatibility does means people still get to use old cables with slower charging and data rates for a while until those cables break or get lost, and it means the new cable can still be used with old devices (but will drop to whatever data and power rates they support). It also means Apple has to have, for the iPhone only, an extra team maintaining an extra connector type not used by anything else.

        (3) Same issue as (2), but this one has to beat USB-C. And switching to a different proprietary connector means their customers now need at least 3 cables (4 for Apple Watch users, but those folks have to have at least 2 cables anyways since that one is wireless charging only). Users would need Lighting for accessors/peripherals, USB-C for iPad, MBP, and <new proprietary> for a new iPhone. That would go over well.

        (4) Same problems as (2) and (3) but at least it's standard. It also has to beat USB-C and what connector would they use that's standard, popular, and not USB-C?

        (5) Not viable for the phones. Too many consumers expect their phones to connect, physically, to cars and headsets. Without a 3.5 mm jack that leaves the Lightning, and now USB-C, connector. With cars, unless you have wireless CarPlay (newer cars only) you're SOL for CarPlay, and it's a downgrade to lose that and end up with just audio over Bluetooth. This hurts them substantially in the market and is non-viable. In 5 years, may be a different story.

        (6) They already switched to USB-C on pretty much everything else. It opens up every USB-C peripheral (most of Apple's own are already wireless, with Lightning or USB-C to charge, increasingly USB-C). It's the standard connector. It offers fast charging and higher data rates. They already have licenses and contracts in place to use it. They don't have to dedicate an engineering team to support a one-off variant.

        (6) is the most sensible option followed by (2). (2) should have happened years ago if it was in their plans. The regulations may have moved up the timeline, but it didn't change what was going to happen.

        So what's your argument, which of the non-USB-C options do you think was on Apple's agenda before the regulators came calling? Given that they'd already switched almost every other device in their lineup to USB-C, what was Apple going to do with the iPhone?

  • dwaite 10 months ago

    The problem is that other than faster charging, the vast majority of people would not see USB-C as an upgrade, and instead a play to make them buy new cables and chargers. Even though Apple had switched over to exclusively bundling USB-C to lightning cables with the iPhone 11 (2019) and usb-c to MagSafe for Apple Watch Series 7 (2021), a USB-C port on the device does not in itself provide a clear advantage for migration - Apple switching could just be seen as a play to get everyone to buy new cables and chargers.

    Even after the switch to USB-C, it blows my relatives' minds when I explained you could plug a USB flash drive into the phone directly. It is just a charging hole for most.

    My hypothesis is that they were already planning to go to USB-C on the pro models last year an then trickle it down to the base model 1-2 years following - the SoC was updated with USB 3 features like 10 Gbps data transfer and DP alt mode, and they had software features like capturing 4k video directly to a connected external SSD. The base 15 was left on an older SoC due to cost/yields at TSMC.

    Europe may have moved them to upgrade the base model 1-2 years earlier. However, by doing such a migration "begrudgingly" Apple got to use Europe as a little bit of a scapegoat in the press. The forced migration is the answer to the upset questions about the migrating generating a lot of e-waste in terms of obsolete cable and accessories, and in the consumer cost of upgrading a decade of old chargers and lightning cables around their homes, vehicles, offices, etc.

  • astrange 10 months ago

    The regulation doesn't require having a port I believe. Just that if there is a port, it's USBC.

    • cdchn 10 months ago

      I interpreted it to mean it must have a USB-C to charge, not that _if_ it has a port it must be USB-C. Then again I'm not an EU regulations lawyer so thats just my interpretation.

    • [removed] 10 months ago
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