Comment by horsawlarway

Comment by horsawlarway 10 months ago

2 replies

I use TOR in the US... You're not actually making a very compelling argument here.

My statement is pretty clear - using a privacy tool can single you out. Am I afraid of that in the US? Nope, not really.

Would I be afraid of that in, say, Iran? North Korea? Russia? Israel? China? Probably.

> If you live in an authoritarian country and actively oppose the government, you are already doing something that will get you punished if you're caught and then the question is, which is more likely to get you caught? Tor has several measures to reduce the probability that you're detected. Private entry guards, pluggable transports, etc. You might still get caught, but these things reduce the probability, whereas if you openly oppose the government without using any privacy technology, you're much easier to catch. Using it in this case is pretty clearly to your advantage.

You know a clear way to avoid this risk entirely? Don't trust your communications to a public network. Is TOR better than posting directly online? probably. Is TOR still a risk? Obviously yes. Understanding your risks is important, and simply saying "Use it anyways" is not an appropriate answer. Like... at all.

AnthonyMouse 10 months ago

> My statement is pretty clear - using a privacy tool can single you out. Am I afraid of that in the US? Nope, not really.

Which does imply that the "singles you out" argument doesn't really apply to anyone who is in the US or any country with a non-authoritarian government.

> Would I be afraid of that in, say, Iran? North Korea? Russia? Israel? China? Probably.

But in those cases your problem is the alternative. If you don't use Tor then you're trapped between the oppressive option of self-censorship or the even more dangerous option of not censoring yourself while also not using any privacy technology.

Moreover, the more people use it the less using it singles anyone out, and the more people contribute to making it harder to detect etc. See also Hofstadter's theory of superrationality.

> You know a clear way to avoid this risk entirely? Don't trust your communications to a public network.

"Just build your own internet" is frequently not a realistic proposal.

  • horsawlarway 10 months ago

    I want to firmly state that this is (fucking badly) mis-stating my whole point.

    > But in those cases your problem is the alternative. If you don't use Tor then you're trapped between the oppressive option of self-censorship or the even more dangerous option of not censoring yourself while also not using any privacy technology.

    Don't use online communication. Period. Talk to people face to face.

    > "Just build your own internet" is frequently not a realistic proposal.

    Don't use online communication. Period. Talk to people face to face.

    > Which does imply that the "singles you out" argument doesn't really apply to anyone who is in the US or any country with a non-authoritarian government.

    Not my damn point. And you well know it, you just don't want to concede a breath of air to the idea that you might be wrong...

    > Moreover, the more people use it the less using it singles anyone out, and the more people contribute to making it harder to detect etc. See also Hofstadter's theory of superrationality.

    Fallacy is fallacy. Dreaming of a utopia does not make it so, and expecting the average person to take this stance just isn't a realistic expectation. Noble goal. Shit thing to risk your personal safety on.

    ---

    And that's the point. I advocate for these tools, I use them I when I think they're appropriate. Failing to be able to consider a possible downside isn't a "good" thing. It doesn't make the argument for these tools stronger... it makes it hard to evaluate your risk, and personally - makes me think you're actively undermining real efforts for security.

    So if your actual stance is "Use these tools even though I understand it compromises your personal safety - I don't care because blah blah blah"... then I don't have enough respect for you to continue the conversation. You are only acting for you, and that's shitty.