Comment by daft_pink
Comment by daft_pink 20 hours ago
We need something better than IPv6 that better addresses the needs of users. IPv6 does too much and is too complicated.
Comment by daft_pink 20 hours ago
We need something better than IPv6 that better addresses the needs of users. IPv6 does too much and is too complicated.
> IPv6 is undeniably simpler.
Perhaps to someone who's never been exposed to IPv4.
But for those who know IPv4 from before, it means almost a complete rewrite of all the knowledge. Just about every detail of setting up an IPv6 network is different from an IPv4 network, with just the superficial bits staying similar.
It also has bits that are undeniably more complex than IPv4, like dynamic address allocation. You got SLAAC, RA, stateful and stateless DHCPv6, with the latter being required in certain cases. And with that you now got two different ways to provide DNS servers to clients, and which one takes precedence is undeniably non-trivial[1] and even implementation dependent!
[1]: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8106#section-5.3.1
Not so. IPv4->6 removes all existing v4 address blocks and redoes the addressing scheme. Those changes weren't necessary for expanding the address space. This implies that day 1 of using ipv6, all your addresses are different (and way longer), all your routes change, DNS DHCP etc all need to be swapped out, and bans/reputation are all reset with no clear replacement. And there were a bunch of smaller changes / new features.
Whatever you do to get more addresses, it will look similar in the end, but the steps could've been very different.
How would a computer with an expanded address scheme communicate with another device with an unexpanded IPV4 address? How would that client get its response back?
How would a router know what to do with it without updating its software?
At the end of the day, you are talking about using a different than IPV4 address scheme and using a different protocol than IPV4. Everything in the stack will need to be updated. Every hop on the route, every single piece of software that will interact with the network address. Backwards compatibility still requires everything but the older device to be updated.
Yes, everything has to be updated eventually, but going forward doesn't have to be this hard. A network and its hosts could start supporting ipv6 without changing anything else. Same addr and routes as before, same NAT, and no DNS6/DHCP6/etc, so very low effort and risk to turn it on. If a peer only supports v4, talk v4 to it for now.
Then once there's sufficient v6 adoption, you can disable v4 entirely and start using /40, /48, etc..
What do you suggest as "something better than IPv6"?
How is that better than IPv6? Remember that there is no way to squeeze more address bits into IPv4 header, that need to come up with a new protocol. In fact, need to come up with a whole suite of new protocols. You could just make the addresses bigger but still need to deploy.
IPv6 changed some things, most of them for the better, and it already works. The only problem is migrating and the problem is people who don't want to switch.
One example of how IPv6 is better than IPv4 with more address bits, is that 128-bit address is big enough to put the whole IPv4 address in. NAT64 put the IPv4 address in the 64-bit host section. MAP-T puts the whole NAT state in address, getting rid of expensive CGNAT.
That's my proposal, ipv6 with extra steps. As in, incremental steps instead of one impossibly big change. tl;dr keep the pre-existing v4 /32 blocks day 1, and the rest follows.
Edit: I said "my" proposal, but pretty sure the same idea has been brought up many times.
Getting rid of IPv4 address allocation is one of the huge advantages of IPv6. IPv4 is chopped up into little pieces and the routing table is mess from it. Starting from scratch, IPv6 can make that better.
IPv6 also realized that most people don't need their own address space. It is valuable in IPv4 to own an allocation, but IPv6 is so huge it doesn't matter.
For setup, IPv6 does it automatically for customers. Peering requires entering IPv6 addresses, but that is a one time thing.
> Getting rid of IPv4 address allocation is one of the huge advantages of IPv6. IPv4 is chopped up into little pieces and the routing table is mess from it.
Basically IPv6 only solves problems if you're paid full time to do network administration.
If you just run a small network among other things, it creates problems. Because you can't hold the new structure in your head if it's not your main job.
> Starting from scratch, IPv6 can make that better.
Yeah right. Want that "things you should never do" Joel link?
He was talking about Netscape, but I think IPv6 is a much better example.
Yeah, the route fragmentation a disadvantage of what I've had in mind. My focus is just on getting things to speak v6 to fix the scarcity problem first. Maybe at some point the owners could've swapped addresses back to defrag things.
If you think IPv6 is too complicated, you are either overestimating IPv6’s complexity or underestimating IPv4’s complexity. IPv6 is undeniably simpler. It has a cleaner header format that is simpler to parse, it has no need for on-path routers to perform fragmentation, it combines host/router discovery and various diagnostic control packets down into a single protocol called ICMPv6, it has stateless address autoconfiguration and correct link-local address behaviours amongst others. It fixes decades of mistakes that have accumulated in IPv4.