Comment by nextos

Comment by nextos 2 days ago

It's a shame Python has a strong anti-FP stance with crippled lambdas. And an OO system that looks like it has been bolted in, compared to Ruby which is essentially a Smalltalk with Perl-like syntax and some Lisp influence.

These two issues would have been quite easy to fix and would have led to a completely different development experience. Python had a good implementation with a nice C FFI (CPython) right from the beginning, whereas Ruby MRI had lots of efficiency issues with long-running computations. IMHO this is one of the reasons why Python won. Building a numerics stack on top of MRI did not look very promising.

pansa2 2 days ago

> an OO system that looks like it has been bolted in, compared to Ruby

I think the two languages just have different design philosophies. In Python, functions are fundamental and classes are built on top of them. In Ruby, objects are fundamental and functions (i.e. Procs etc) are themselves objects.

You could just as well claim that in Ruby, functions look like they have been bolted in. For example, you can’t call a Proc itself but need to call one of its methods.

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pmontra 2 days ago

I agree. Python was designed in 1989 and it looks like the OOP we were doing in C (without the ++) back at the time. Objects were a struct with data and function pointers and we were passing them around as pointers. Python has self, explicit in function definition and implicit in function calls, and that self is really like the pointer to the struct. By the way, OO languages from the 90s (e.g. Java and Ruby) were designed to always hide that self, both in method definition and method call. They use it when there is a need to tell the difference between instance attributes and local variables with the same name.
Maybe the explicit self was there to make C programmers feel at home. Functions as fundamental building blocks of the language also make C programmers feel at home. Developers got more familiar with OOP by mid 90s so the new languages could jump from functions-first to objects-first.

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- nextos 2 days ago
  
  I think Python's OO is a bit suboptimal even if the goal was to have method-centric OOP like in C with classes. For example, mechanisms to hide information, a fundamental part of the OO paradigm, are hacky. You need to use name mangling.
  Same applies to FP, a few things are weird and crippled. IMHO, the net result is that Python code tends to look longer and much more algorithmic than in Ruby, Smalltalk or various Lisps, where the language favors lots of little functions that call each other.
  Things are changing a bit, though. For example, pattern matching (PEP 622) brings some conciseness. Fixing those other issues would be great.
  
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maple3142 2 days ago

Isn't Python's functions are just objects with a __call__ method, and such objects has a syntax sugar allowed them to be called like a function.

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- baq 2 days ago
  
  Functions are objects are functions are objects… heard that from a little schemer
  
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