Comment by BugsJustFindMe

It depends on the situation, and we need more data/video. But if there are a bunch of children milling about an elementary school in a chaotic situation with lots of double parking, 17 mph is too fast, and the Waymo should have been driving more conservatively.

An honest account of this situation would place at least some blame on there being a tall SUV blocking visibility.

These giant SUVs really are the worst when it comes to child safety

AV’s with enough sensing are generally quite good at stopping quickly. It is usually the behavior prior to the critical encounter that has room for improvement.

The question will be whether 17 mph was a reasonably cautious speed for this specific scenario. Many school zones have 15 mph limits and when there are kids about people may go even slower. At the same time, the general rule in CA for school zone is 25 mph. Clearly the car had some level of caution which is good.

It does sound like a good outcome for automation. Though I suppose an investigation into the matter would arguably have to look at whether a competent human driver would be driving at 17mph (27km/h) under those circumstances to begin with, rather than just comparing the relative reaction speeds, taking the hazardous situation for granted.

What I would like to see is a full-scale vehicle simulator where humans are tested against virtual scenarios that faithfully recreate autonomous driving accidents to see how "most people" would have acted in the minutes leading up to the event as well as the accident itself

For me it would be interesting to know if 17 mi/h was a reasonable speed to be driving in this environment under these conditions to begin with. In my school zones that's already close to the maximum speed allowed. What was the weather, were there cars parked which would make a defensive driver slow down even more?

The autonomous vehicle should know what it can't know, like children coming out from behind obstructions. Humans have this intuitive sense. Apparently autonomous systems do not, and do not drive carefully, or slower, or give more space, in those situations. Does it know that it's in a school zone? (Hopefully.) Does it know that school is starting or getting out? (Probably not.) Should it? (Absolutely yes.)

This is the fault of the software and company implementing it.

They they are being very transparent about it.

So the TechCrunch headline should be "Waymo hits child better than a human driver would"? Not sure if the details reflect how the general public actually interprets this story (see the actual TC headline for exhibit A).

It’s great handling of the situation. They should release a video as well.

> I honestly cannot imagine a better outcome or handling of the situation.

It's the "best outcome" if you're trying to go as fast as possible without breaking any laws or ending up liable for any damage.

German perspective, but if I told people I've been going 30km/h next to a school with poor visibility as children are dropped off around me, I would be met with contempt for that kind of behavior. I'd also at least face some partial civil liability if I hit anyone.

There's certainly better handling of the situation possible, it's just that US traffic laws and attitudes around driving do not encourage it.

I suspect many human drivers would've driven slower, law or no law.

"from behind a tall SUV, "

I look for shadows underneath stationary vehicles. I might also notice pedestrians "vanishing". I have a rather larger "context" than any robot effort.

However, I am just one example of human. My experience of never managing to run someone over is just an anecdote ... so far. The population of humans as a whole manages to run each other over rather regularly.

A pretty cheap instant human sensor might be Bluetooth/BLE noting phones/devices in near range. Pop a sensor in each wing mirror and on the top and bottom. The thing would need some processing power but probably nothing that the built in Android dash screen couldn't handle.

There are lots more sensors that car manufacturers are trying to avoid for cost reasons, that would make a car way better at understanding the context of the world around it.

I gather that Tesla insist on optical (cameras) only and won't do LIDAR. My EV has four cameras and I find it quite hard to see what is going on when it is pissing down with rain, in the same way I do if I don't clean my specs.

We should take their reporting with grain of salt and wait for official results

> reducing speed from approximately 17 mph

Isn't the speed limit normally 15 mph or less in a school zone? Was the robotaxi speeding?

Can’t trust a private company.

Where is the video recording ?

Waymo driver? The vehicles are autonomous. I otherwise applaud Waymo's response, and I hope they are as cooperative as they say they will be. However, referring to the autonomous vehicle as having a driver is a dangerous way to phrase it. It's not passive voice, per se, but it has the same effect of obscuring responsibility. Waymo should say we, Waymo LLC, subsidiary of Alphabet, Inc., braked hard...

Importantly, Waymo takes full ownership for something they write positively: Our technology immediately detected the individual.... But Waymo weasels out of taking responsibility for something they write about negatively.

> From the Waymo blog...

I'll just remind anyone reading: they're under no obligation to tell the unvarnished truth on their blog.

Even if the NHTSA eventually points out significant failures, getting this report out now has painted a picture of Waymo only having an accident a human would have handled worse.

It would be wise to wait and see if the NHTSA agree. Would a driver have driven at 17mph in this sort of traffic or would they have viewed it as a situation where hidden infant pedestrians are likely to step out?

It's hardly surprising that the version of events from the PR department makes Waymo sound completely blameless.

I honestly think that Waymo's reaction was spot on. I drop off and pick up my kid from school every day. The parking lots can be a bit of a messy wild west. My biggest concern is the size of cars especially those huge SUV or pickup trucks that have big covers on the back. You can't see anything incoming unless you stick your head out.

I'm picturing a 10 second clip showing a child with a green box drawn around them, and position of gas and brake, updating with superhuman reactions. That would be the best possible marketing that any of these self driving companies could hope for, and Waymo probably now has such a video sitting somewhere.

I wonder if another waymo ahead could have seen that child earlier and told the main waymo. This would be pretty neat and have a large safety impact.

When I was a boy, I ran into the street from between two parked cars. I did not notice the car coming, but he noticed me popping out from nowhere, and screeched to a stop.

I was very very lucky.

I suspect the robotaxi may have done better than a human.

Human reaction times are terrible, and lots of kids get seriously injured, or killed, when they run out from between cars.

In fact I would call that “superhuman” behavior across the board.

The vast vast vast majority of human drivers would not have been able to accomplish that braking procedure that quickly, and then would not have been able to manage the follow up so quickly.

I have watched other parent drivers in the car pick up line at public schools for the last 16 years and people are absolutely trash at navigating that whole process and parents drive so poorly it’s absurd. At least half parents I see on their phones while literally feet away from hitting some kid.

Well done waymo!

This is great.

what about all the traffic violations though?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46814583

> remained stopped, moved to the side of the road

Stopped or moved? Is it allowed in CA to move car at all after a serious accident happens?

>> I honestly cannot imagine a better outcome or handling of the situation.

One better than: We investigated our own system and found ourselves to be at no fault?

Take that particular Waymo car off the road. Seems absurd, but they still hit someone.

EDIT: replies say I'm misremembering, disregard.

> I honestly cannot imagine a better outcome or handling of the situation.

> From the Waymo blog

Yeah, like, no shit Sherlock. We'd better wait for some videos before making our opinions.

> I honestly cannot imagine a better outcome or handling of the situation.

If it can yell at the kid and send a grumpy email to the parents and school, the automation is complete.

Most humans in that situation won't have reaction speed to do shit about it and it could result in a severe injury or death.

I easily can: when in a school zone never every go so fast that you can't stop before hitting a kid, especially when visibility is limited.