Comment by signal11

Comment by signal11 2 days ago

531 replies | 3 pages

Tahoe is a macOS mis-step on par with Windows 8 or Windows Vista. If you’re from Apple and reading this, my feedback is pretty succinct: “I don’t recommend others upgrade. I wish I didn’t.”

Luckily for Apple, Windows 11 is not exactly in a position to attract switchers.

Let’s see if Apple can turn things around. iOS 8+ did improve on iOS 7’s worst bits.

GrowingSideways 2 days ago

Can you interpret this comment for those of us that haven't used windows? All i can recall from "vista" is that it looked good

  • einr 2 days ago

    Off the top of my head: Windows Vista was slow and unstable on a lot of hardware of the time due to significantly higher system requirements than XP and a new display driver model that worked poorly at first, had a very polarizing look, and had quite overbearing UAC -- where XP would just let you do the thing, Vista would ask you three times if you're really really sure you wanted to authorize it.

    It had decent bones though -- arguably a lot of its bad reputation was due to hardware/third party driver issues and people trying to run it on old hardware that just couldn't hack it. Windows 7 was well received and is basically the same thing with small improvements and some of the UX issues smoothed over (i.e. less annoying UAC)

    • overfeed 2 days ago

      Windows Vista was also notorious for going overboard with translucency effects in the default "Aero" style

      • xmddmx 2 days ago

        My memory is that it was named "Aero Glass" which heightens the irony of "Liquid Glass" sucking.

        But I see many references to it being called just "Aero", but some call it "Aero Glass" [1]

        Does anyone know the truth?

        [1] https://www.pcmag.com/archive/rip-aero-glass-windows-8-stick...

        • overfeed 2 days ago

          Microsoft marketing maybhave had a specific preference, but "Aero" and "Aero Glass" are interchangeable. From the same article you linked:

          > "Rest in peace, Aero. I liked you, a lot. Still do. And I'll miss you," Thurrott writes

  • dlivingston 2 days ago

    Microsoft's Copilot AI software has been integrated in every corner of the operating system, from the start menu to the notepad to settings. Beyond the intrusiveness of it, it also does not work very well. Other AI mishaps include Recall, which takes screenshots of your desktop every so often, and the original version of Recall stored these in an unencrypted, insecure database.

    On top of that, the OS feels more bloated and disorganized than ever, with something like six different UI frameworks all present in various spots on the OS; system settings are scattered across the Settings app (new) and various legacy panels like Control Panel and Network Connections.

    What else... Microsoft now requires an online connection and Microsoft account to sign in to your PC; no more local-only accounts allowed.

    I'm sure there's more I'm missing. It's not a pleasant operating system.

    • Wistar 2 days ago

      I added a local-only account to a Win 11 Pro box just two days ago. Nothing seems different to me—the usual horsing around with the no online account stuff but it let me create the account.

      • esseph 2 days ago

        Pro will allow it. Home which is what comes with most computers, does not now.

    • timpera 2 days ago

      I find that it is quite a pleasant operating system!

      Recall is turned off by default and Copilot never nags you to use it (like Gemini on Chromebooks/Google Search/Google Docs does).

      I completely agree with the UI frameworks thing though. They really need to remove the Control Panel.

      • _carbyau_ 2 days ago

        > They really need to remove the Control Panel.

        ... they really need to provide 100% coverage to all the same settings, THEN remove the control panel.

      • GrowingSideways 2 days ago

        > I find that it is quite a pleasant operating system!

        Pleasant compared to what? Older versions of windows? linux, or macs? This is the first positive review I've ever heard.

    • p_ing 2 days ago

      I don't have Copilot in my start menu. It's in Notepad, but that is the only place I've found it. This is on 25H2.

      > original version of Recall stored these in an unencrypted, insecure database.

      Why do you bother mentioning it, given that's been long rectified and that particular version never made it to the production ring?

      > six different UI frameworks all present in various spots on the OS

      Windows has always been like this. It wasn't until Windows 11 that the Font dialog was upgraded from a Win 3.x look and feel.

      > no more local-only accounts allowed.

      Just false.

  • Nextgrid 2 days ago

    The Vista comparison is unfair. I think a lot of the bad rap Vista got was from trying to run it on underpowered hardware thanks to marketing XP-era machines as "Windows Vista Capable". I actually ran it on good HW (the kind that could run Crysis) and I didn't have anything bad to say.

    Yes, UAC could be considered as annoyance by some but it's no different than "sudo" on single-user Linux machines and we seemingly have no problems with that (I wish we'd move on past that because it is damn annoying and offers no security benefit).

    Comparing Vista to modern macOS is insulting. Vista didn't have that level of jank and the UIs were actually quite good, consistent and with reasonable information density, unlike "System Settings" or shitty Catalyst apps.

    • dont__panic 2 days ago

      It's even sadder. Apple has some of the best-performing CPUs on the market. And even with that kind of power under the hood, iOS, iPadOS, and macOS 26 chug and choke and drop frames. What the hell hardware did they target?

    • ziml77 2 days ago

      > Yes, UAC could be considered as annoyance by some but it's no different than "sudo" on single-user Linux machines and we seemingly have no problems with that (I wish we'd move on past that because it is damn annoying and offers no security benefit).

      It was wild to me when I was testing out if I wanted to move over to Linux as my full-time desktop OS how much it was asking for my password. And it didn't even have a mechanism to make it a little less painful such as requesting a short PIN (which I think is a fine option as long as a few incorrect PIN entries forces full password input).

      • smrq 2 days ago

        Give your user NOPASSWD if it's really that bothersome. You can also potentially set it up to use a fingerprint reader if you have that hardware.

        • Nextgrid 21 hours ago

          Yep on the terminal that would work... though I still think it should be the default.

          On the other hand I'm not sure NOPASSWD would affect desktop environments - any desktop stuff goes via PolicyKit or whatever the latest systemd iteration is and I doubt it's smart enough to read Sudo's config (and there's an argument it shouldn't - if anything it should be the other way around, a system-wide generic "this is single-user machine, the only user is effectively root anyway" flag that both Sudo and Polkit should obey).

          In both cases yes it's solvable, but I wish it became the default if there are no other interactive user accounts, or at least be easy to configure - if anything, by a simple "don't ask me again" on the permissions popup.

    • realusername 2 days ago

      You had way more issues than that on launch, performance of 3d games sucked compared to XP with the same hardware (I remember at least a 30% decrease of FPS) and usb file transfers were so borked you probably had half of the speed of XP transfering on a usb key (which was the primary method of transfering files at the time).

      The UAC wasn't even the main problem, the overall performance of Vista was, everything was so much slower.

  • Novosell 2 days ago

    Windows 8 was when Microsoft tried to cater more towards Windows-on-tablet use cases. Which lead to everyone, including desktop users, having a fullscreen phone-style app menu take the place of the old start menu. This, for desktop use, is obviously quite disruptive and was hated by everyone.

    They addressed most issues in the 8.1 update, like a year later I think.

    • doubled112 2 days ago

      You know what was worse than desktop users? Server users via RDP.

      There was no start button. There are no screen edges to swipe in from. Hot corners are really hard to hit. I still can't believe somebody said "yes, good idea" to using that UI for Server 2012.

      • Nextgrid 2 days ago

        I RDP'd into a Windows Server VM a year or so ago and got a full-screen popup for Edge or some shit like that.

        If that wasn't bad enough, the popup was a web view, meaning none of RDP's acceleration/client-side compositing was in play and I was greeted with a ~1fps slideshow.

  • nntwozz 2 days ago

    Apple had one of the most successful and known ad campaigns "I'm a mac and I'm a PC" ridiculing Windows Vista, they pretty much summed it up in those.

    Getting to Windows 11 today, they have ads in the Start menu. Not exactly appealing to the Apple crowd…

    • Gigachad 2 days ago

      They also ridiculed the permissions popups. But now when I plug my AirPods to charge on my MacBook it opens a permissions popup.

      • locusofself 2 days ago

        yet there is no way to get my iPhone to stop auto-switching bluetooth audio between my devices. Any time I get in my car, my headphones connect to the car and I have to switch it back. So annoying

  • ianbutler 2 days ago

    MetroUI in Windows 8 was pretty universally panned. I thought it was pretty good on tablets and such, but it left a lot to be desired on desktops and hid a lot of functionality, it went too mobile for a lot of people's tastes.

    Disclaimer: I was one of the dozens who used a windows phone. The Nokia Lumia 920 was great, you can fight me.

    • stevage 2 days ago

      I think a lot of people liked the Windows mobile experience. Shame it didn't quite get enough market share.

      • Nextgrid 2 days ago

        Resetting the app ecosystem 3 fucking times by breaking app compatibility didn't help. Windows Phone 7 - Windows Phone 8 -> Windows (Phone?) 10.

  • its-summertime 2 days ago

    Windows 8 featured a notable paradigm shift from a menuing launcher (click start, programs, then the program you want, as an example), to a full screen launcher (Think Android and iOS). And also switched from floating windows (The default for most Linux distros and for Mac AFAIK) to rudimentary tiling windows (Think Android and iOS)

    https://youtu.be/RuuqEZnvEoU?t=30

  • lunar_rover 2 days ago

    Vista had the right direction, Windows 7 merely continued on it and it became one of the best operating systems ever.

    Windows 8 design wasn't bad per se, but they shipped the start screen when it lacks even the most basic features, so you'll return to legacy desktop the moment you want to do anything.

    I don't think any of them are like Tahoe TBH.

  • airstrike 2 days ago

    from my own personal experience, Vista was very slow and buggy at launch, but it did get better over time

ubermonkey a day ago

I'm as picky as the next guy, but I'm not seeing Tahoe being THAT BAD. I was holding off, but various events led to me buying a new laptop so I got it by default.

Resizing isn't great, but it's also deeply shitty in Win 11. I feel like window manager thought leadership has failed across the board, but the regression isn't that big of a deal in day to day usage, and is definitely not unique to Apple.