davisr 18 hours ago

This is funny because I was the operations assistant (office secretary) at the time we received this letter, and I remember it because of the distinct postage.

  • ngharo 10 hours ago

    I met a web developer working for the FSF at a Boston pub one night while in town for a Red Hat conference. After many drinks, he walked us down fifth street to the FSF office building. I wasn’t sure what to expect but when we got there, he typed in some numbers on the door entry system, and what came out was RMS singing the free software song lol. It was a wonderful treat for a young Linux nerd on a hazy adventure in the early morning

  • MadnessASAP 18 hours ago

    How wonderful! Since the game of the day seems to be the technicalities of the minutiae, could you explain the decision to send the GPLv3 vs GPLv2? Is this a request that happens often?

    • jenscow 18 hours ago

      The version wasn't specified in the request

    • self_awareness 17 hours ago

      The sender didn't specify the version in his request, so I find it natural that they've sent him the latest version.

      • taftster 16 hours ago

        The author mentioned this exact problem. Quoting:

        > There was a problem that I noticed right away, though: this text was from the GPL v3, not the GPL v2. In my original request I had never mentioned the GPL version I was asking about.

        >The original license notice makes no mention of GPL version either. Should the fact that the license notice contained an address have been enough metadata or a clue, that I was actually requesting the GPL v2 license? Or should I have mentioned that I was seeking the GPLv2 license?

        This is seemingly a problem with the GPL text itself, in that it doesn't mention which license version to request when you mail the FSF.

      • kevincox 16 hours ago

        How does a sender who only has a GPLv2 license notice even know that there is a v3? Should they first send a letter asking which versions are available?

  • cortesoft 17 hours ago

    What sort of request volume did you get? How many per day were you sending out?

  • leoh 6 hours ago

    Was including reply postage in fact required?

bluGill a day ago

At least he got a response. Meaning the address didn't change mostly.

A few years back I worked on an embedded linux project. For our first "alpha" release one of the testers read through the license agreement (as opposed to scrolling past all that legalese like most people do) and found the address to write to to get all the GPL source, he then send a letter to the address and it was returned to sender, invalid address. Somehow the lawyers found out about this and the forced us to do a full recall, sending techs to each machine to install an update (the testers installed the original software and were expected to apply updates, but we still had to send someone to install this update and track that everyone got it). Lawyers want to show good faith in courts - they consider it inevitable that someone will violate the GPL and are hoping that by showing good faith attempts to follow the letter and spirit the court won't force releasing our code when a "rouge employee" manages to violate the license.

The more important take away is if your automated test process doesn't send letters to your GPL compliance address to verify it works then you need manual testers: not only are you not testing everything, but you didn't even think of everything so you need the assurance of humans looking for something "funny".

  • AlbinoDrought 19 hours ago

    The Free Software Foundation closed their office at 51 Franklin St in August 2024 [1]. Their new mailing address is on 31 Milk Street [2].

    If this test was reproduced today, we may see different results ;)

    [1]: https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/fsf-office-closing-party

    [2]: https://www.fsf.org/about/contact/mailing

    • dunham 19 hours ago

      That's recent enough that mail forwarding should work, if they set it up:

      > Standard mail forwarding lasts 12 months. You can pay to extend mail forwarding for 6, 12, or 18 more months (18 months is the maximum).

      Edit for source: https://www.usps.com/manage/forward.htm

      • giancarlostoro 18 hours ago

        > > Standard mail forwarding lasts 12 months. You can pay to extend mail forwarding for 6, 12, or 18 more months (18 months is the maximum).

        That's kind of awkward when you consider people will find that address for source code where that license file just wont be updated for decades to come, if at all.

    • twic 14 hours ago

      This test isn't about writing to the FSF, it's about writing to the vendor who supplied the software.

  • diggan 21 hours ago

    An updated version would say to make sure every email address you use/show in the application/terms/policies are usable and someone receives it.

    When reviewing stuff that introduces new emails and whatnot I always spend 10-20 seconds sending an email with "Please respond if you see this" to verify it actually works and someone receives it, as I've experienced more than once that no one actually setup the email before deploying the changes that will show the email to users.

  • ahtihn 2 hours ago

    > court won't force releasing our code when a "rouge employee" manages to violate the license.

    Is this an actual, real risk? Has a court ever forced anyone to release their code because they were violating the GPL?

    My understanding is that this is not how this works. If you violate the license you simply don't have a valid one and basically committing copyright infringement. The punishment for that isn't being forced to comply with the license, it's having to pay damages to the copyright owner.

    Showing good faith doesn't really change the end result: you're using code that you don't have a license to. The only fix is to start complying or stop selling your software until you remove the code you don't have a license to use.

  • chasd00 14 hours ago

    reminds me of this old joke. Two testers walk into a bar, the first says "i'll have a beer please" and they get their beer as expected. The second says "I just want water" and they get the water just like the asked. Then a user walks into the bar and asks "where's the bathroom?". The bar explodes.

  • terinjokes 21 hours ago

    Why should the test process be sending physical letters (edit: in 2025)? Nothing in the GPLv2 requires a physical letter.

    The address the OP sent a letter too has already been removed from the canonical version of the license (and was itself an unversioned change from the original address), and section 3 doesn't require a physical offer if the machine-readable source code is provided.

    • ndiddy 20 hours ago

      Some companies still do this mainly to make the GPL request process more annoying so fewer people do it. If you have to mail a letter with a check to cover shipping/handling and wait for the company to send you a CD-R with the code on it, fewer people will look at the code compared to if the company just put it on Github or something.

      • terinjokes 18 hours ago

        If the goal is to be annoying, sure make sure folks can jump through hoops. I just don't think in 2025 a company legitimately intending to satisfy the GPL requirements needs anything to do with physical mail, since they'll provide it online.

        I stopped putting in requests for source code offers because I've had a 0% success rate.

      • foxglacier 5 hours ago

        I offer GPL source via physical address because I don't want to distribute it with the software and I think the GPL said you have to do it that way. I also provide an email address for convenience but without it being the official way so I don't really have to respond to those. In 10 years, I've had zero requests either way.

      • bluGill 20 hours ago

        Most of the time the GPL request is a waste of time with no purpose other than annoy a company. You can download linux source code from many places, why do you want to get it from us?

        There is a slight possibility we have a driver that you could get access to, but without the hardware it won't do you any good. Once in a while we have hacked the source to fix a bug, but if it isn't upstream it is because the fix would be accepted (often it causes other bugs that don't matter to use), and in any case if it isn't upstream, the kernel moves so fast you wouldn't be able to use it anyway.

NoboruWataya a day ago

Not sure if it's being exaggerated for comedic purposes but it is interesting to me how alien the act of sending a letter by post is to the author. Granted I don't send them very often but I wouldn't think much of it if I had to. But I guess younger people and particularly those in tech may genuinely never need a reason to send a letter (or, it seems, write an address by hand).

  • lproven 7 minutes ago

    > it is interesting to me how alien the act of sending a letter by post is to the author.

    Indeed.

    The author also seems unaware that a 1991 document could not contain a Web address because the world wide web did not exist yet. They guess it is because it is not widely available. That astonished me.

  • ethbr1 20 hours ago

    Slightly alternate take: this post (and the fact that FSF still replies to paper mail) is about accessibility

    Which changes as times change.

    In the 90s, requiring access to the internet and an email address would have been exclusionary and decreased access.

    Now, 30 years later, it's reversed and physical mail is difficult.

    But from another perspective... the goal should be to ensure that anyone who wants to do a thing can, with as few third party requirements as possible.

    In the sense that the FSF wants to be the exact opposite of {install this vendor's parking app to pay for parking} + {get an email account with this particular provider to ensure your email goes through} + {install TicketMaster for access to venue} + {this site requires IE^H^HChrome} all the other mandatory third-party choices we're forced into.

    Postal mail, for all its faults, is universally accessible by design. And continuing to support the most accessible method of communication is laudable!

    Accessibility and convenience >> convenience

    • Misdicorl 20 hours ago

      > the goal should be to ensure that anyone who wants to do a thing can, with as few third party requirements as possible.

      This is a good starting point, but if you have no barriers then you get abuse problems which is why email is terrible. I remember being horrified in the 90s about attempts to charge 1 cent per email. Now I long for a world where that actually happened.

      • tshaddox 15 hours ago

        Ironically, the amount of effort I expend dealing with spam from the postal service is much larger than the amount of effort I expend dealing with email.

      • creaturemachine 20 hours ago

        You're paying that cent, but in the form of endless ads hijacking your consciousness.

    • xmprt 18 hours ago

      > Postal mail, for all its faults, is universally accessible by design

      I think it's important to note that this isn't actually true. For a lot of homeless people or people who move often postal mail isn't as good. Online communication is actually more universal. Most (all?) public libraries have computers now.

      • Tijdreiziger 17 hours ago

        Not sure if this works in other countries, but here in the Netherlands, homeless folks can get a postal address at municipal offices. People who move can set up (albeit paid) mail forwarding for up to a year.

        Other than that, there’s good old ‘poste restante’, in which you can supposedly address mail to any post office and they’ll hold it for the recipient (even internationally), although I’ve never tried this.

        (I appreciate that not everyone may actually know about these options, though.)

        • pabs3 8 hours ago

          I wonder if any post offices have digital post box services to open, digitise, email and incinerate any incoming letters.

    • samspot 18 hours ago

      A common mistake in accessibility is to assume accessibility is mostly for users who are blind. I've rarely seen the opposite approach, calling something accessible that is very much not accessible to a person who is blind. A url is much more accessible for many people with disabilities than the postal mail.

      Even if you mean access instead of accessibility, presumably a person who can find a way to acquire stamps can just as easily make it to a library with public computers.

      • ethbr1 16 hours ago

        accessibility: the quality of being able to be entered or used by everyone, including people who have a disability

    • bigstrat2003 16 hours ago

      Physical mail isn't difficult, even now, for anyone with a modicum of competence. I can understand if someone hasn't used physical mail before, but it's very easy to look up how to send a letter + buy envelopes and stamps. If someone cannot do that without difficulty, they really need to work on their basic life skills.

      • carstenhag 16 hours ago

        Buying a stamp in the home country is doable for most people. But even then, imagine you are 20, how many mails do you think will you have sent?

        For a different country, I'd have no idea. Especially if it's so far away like the USA and I can't locally get a special reply post stamp. What I would have done is to put in 5€ in the envelope and call it a day. The person would probably be happy seeing other money.

      • mvdtnz 15 hours ago

        His difficulty was finding postage stamps for the self-addressed return envelope, and clearly the author is not American. Do you think it would be quite so easy to "buy envelopes and stamps" if you had to send a stamped return envelope to Nepal or Manila? Is that a "basic life skill" or would you have to do a little research to figure out what you'd need?

    • ta8903 19 hours ago

      It's like the classic argument about IRC vs Discord. IRC is more convoluted to use, the clients are subpar, you need to set up a BNC to receive messages when offline, but Discord requires you to give up your phone number.

      Some people find IRC less accessible, but I find having a phone number that I'm willing to give to a third party is a much more difficult requirement.

      • immibis 16 hours ago

        Don't forget the next part: whenever you point out that Discord requires you to give them your phone number, hundreds of Agent Smiths appear in the replies to say that actually you don't. Who are we to believe - the repliers, or our own lying eyes?

        (The Agent Smith effect is something conspiracy theorists made up to explain why every time they show off their conspiracy theory in public, every single person around them suddenly gains the same opinion of them. I'm using it humourously)

        • Macha 12 hours ago

          The explanation is pretty simple: The most fervent users of discord also have overlap with the longest users of discord, and their account age and usage patterns means that discord's risk systems have never demanded a phone number from them.

    • dheera 19 hours ago

      > is universally accessible by design

      I disagree. It requires taking time out of business hours, and they don't pay you your salary while you line up multiple times for 30 minutes each. I've sometimes had to line up for 2 hours total (4 times) just to mail one thing. Once to ask "how do i mail this", once to ask for a pen (couldn't cut the line because a Karen wouldn't let me), once because I filled the wrong form, etc. Typical USPS experience

      • Symbiote 3 hours ago

        The task is sending a letter, not a parcel.

        You buy the stamps (from the post office, another shop with opening hours you prefer, or online), sick one on the envelope and put it in a mailbox.

        Overcomplicating everything so you can grumble on the internet isn't required.

      • seabass-labrax 16 hours ago

        I find it hard to believe that waiting two hours is normal for customers of the USPS. You can order stamps online, they have (collection) postboxes and even offer a pick-up service for parcels. At $0.73 to send a letter anywhere in the USA, that sounds like a pretty impressive offering to me.

      • krisoft 17 hours ago

        I mean it is the fallback method. The solution for the "I never heard of this internet thing, or something else is preventing me from finding the licence online" problem.

        Almost everyone will just use their search engine to find this page: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0.en.html

        What can you do to serve the licence to those who can't or won't do that (for whatever reason)? I think it is hard to find something more universally accessible to serve that edge case.

        You describe your story of how sending a letter went to you, and I admit it sounds like a bit of a pain. But you managed to do it. And by the sound of it you were totally novice at it. (didn't even bring your own pen!) Someone can do the same thing you did anywhere from Nairobi, McMurdo, Pyongyang, or Vigánpetend.

        It is not "universally accessible" in the "easy and comfortable" sense. It is "universally accessible" in the "almost anywhere where humans live you can access this service" sense.

  • palata 21 hours ago

    Agreed. I am a millennial, so most likely older than the author.

    Not having envelopes at the ready is one thing, but ordering stamps... on eBay??? And then wasting a few envelopes because writing down the address is unusual? That kind of blew my mind.

    I am a software engineer, and I always have a paper notebook and a pen next to my keyboard to write down stuff.

    I guess this all tells me I'm getting old :-).

    • alias_neo 21 hours ago

      > but ordering stamps... on eBay

      OP was ordering US stamps to include _in_ the letter, on an SAE (self-addressed envelope) they were sending _from_ the UK, so that the FSF could reply (from the US) using said stamps.

      As a millennial myself, I have no idea where else I'd look for <recipient country> stamps should I want to include them on a SAE I was sending to said country, so that they recipient wouldn't incur the cost of replying to me.

      I don't find looking on eBay particularly strange, though I'd do a quick search for alternatives first.

      • Someone 20 hours ago

        > I have no idea where else I'd look for <recipient country> stamps should I want to include them on a SAE I was sending to said country

        I would try to buy them online from their post office. For the USA, there is https://www.usps.com/business/postage-options.htm:

        “Print Labels Online with Click-N-Ship

        With your free USPS.com account, you can pay for postage and print just one label or a batch of shipping labels online”

        Germany has (https://www.iamexpat.de/expat-info/germany-news/deutsche-pos...):

        “You simply need to open the app, select the appropriate postage service, tick “Code for labelling” (Code zum Beschriften), and pay with PayPal. You will then immediately receive a code, consisting of the letters #PORTO and an eight-digit string, which you must write in pen in the top right-hand corner of the envelope or postcard. Then, just pop it in the post box, and you’re done! The code is valid for 14 days and can only be used for Germany-bound mail.”

        That 14-day limit may not be a good idea for this use case.

      • mjevans 20 hours ago

        Offhand, I don't think I've ever mailed an International letter or package.

        Is return postage something that, normally, my local post office would help me with? E.G. do they have some method of marking or adding post to a package that would be accepted globally (or at least within the destination country)?

      • mytailorisrich 21 hours ago

        Sure but, on the other hand, this was overly kind of him. In general, unless it is explicitely requested that you must provide a stamped envelope for the reply the assumption of snail mail is that each side pays for its own envelopes and stamps.

    • cameronh90 20 hours ago

      The author in the UK so it's pretty much a given that they're exaggerating for comedic effect, but... living in the UK myself, I have only sent maybe about 5 letters in my life, all to the government bureaucracy, and none more recently than a decade ago. And I'm a millennial, albeit on the younger side (so I tell myself).

      I don't have any pens, paper or a printer in my house, so I'd probably go to my workplace if I needed to send a letter nowadays. I do occasionally send a parcel though, which involves printing off a shipping label, so the process isn't completely alien.

      • SpaceNoodled 16 hours ago

        It's bizarre to hear about people not even having a single pen, like the author. What's the last time you ever used one? What is your daily life like?

      • pbhjpbhj 18 hours ago

        We don't have a printer at home (UK), sending parcels is the only time we'd need it but our small local post office prints labels (eg for Amazon returns, or parcel companies).

        I did print a page at work recently, the second one since I started my job 5 years ago.

        • cameronh90 17 hours ago

          Most of the time I have to send parcels now, I use those drop off lockers where you just put it in the right cubbyhole and - I guess - they label it when they pick it up. Otherwise, most couriers will do label on pickup, or the return label is included with the delivery in the first place. Very occasionally there's no other option but to find some way of printing it myself.

          I did have a small inkjet printer at one point, but the ink kept drying up, so in the end it was costing me £10 and a trip to Tesco every time I needed to print something. Thought about getting a laser, but it's quite a lot of space to waste on something I use so rarely. I might get one of those little thermal printers that are small enough to keep in a drawer.

    • grishka 19 hours ago

      I'm also a millennial software engineer but I usually write stuff down to text files. I do use pen and paper to draw things if that helps my understanding of them. Like when there's geometry involved.

      Sending letters isn't an alien concept to me either. I'm old enough to have done it regularly as a kid. I especially liked the part where you have to write the zip code in those machine-readable digits.

      • eru 18 hours ago

        > I especially liked the part where you have to write the zip code in those machine-readable digits.

        How long ago was that? The machine have gotten really good at deciphering regular handwriting quite a while ago.

      • SpaceNoodled 16 hours ago

        When and where were you required to write the ZIP so strangely? I've never heard of such a bizarre requirement.

    • qingcharles 8 hours ago

      I actually buy all my stamps on eBay. You can buy legit Forever USA stamps at below market rates.

    • eru 18 hours ago

      > And then wasting a few envelopes because writing down the address is unusual? That kind of blew my mind.

      Some people really have terrible hand writing. And dyslexia is a thing, too.

      • layer8 17 hours ago

        That weren’t the reasons stated, though.

  • ryandrake 20 hours ago

    > Not sure if it's being exaggerated for comedic purposes but it is interesting to me how alien the act of sending a letter by post is to the author.

    It was pretty recognizable as trolling--the very good and clever "old school Internet" style of trolling where it sounds plausible and sincere, but then you get done reading it and say, "Oh lawd, he got me! Good one!" The kind of writing that people used to spend a lot of time perfecting on Slashdot. I refuse to believe there are adults out there where things like using a pen to write and mailing a letter are alien concepts that need to be learned. It was very earnestly written though, bravo!

    • bongodongobob 19 hours ago

      > I refuse to believe there are adults out there where things like using a pen to write and mailing a letter are alien concepts that need to be learned.

      Well, believe it. I'm in my 40s and haven't written a letter since I was a kid. Why would I ever have to? Ask someone who was born in 2003 if they've ever written and mailed a letter. 99% are going to say no.

      • programjames 19 hours ago

        As someone born in 2003, I did this just last week when filing my tax returns.

      • mrloop 11 hours ago

        I had to inform numerous companies of my mums death last year. A lot of them had either phone support with very long wait times or a postal address, no email. It took me less time to write a letter and post it than to wait on hold

      • tart-lemonade 18 hours ago

        Do you not send thank you cards for birthday and holiday gifts?

      • SoftTalker 18 hours ago

        I just sent in my taxes by USPS mail a couple of weeks ago. Long after online payments were available, I would pay my monthly bills by writing checks and sending them in the mail, as that process actually took me less time than logging in to five or six different websites and navigating through their online payment flows.

      • SpaceNoodled 16 hours ago

        There's a difference between writing a letter longhand, and simply knowing how to use a pen.

      • [removed] 17 hours ago
        [deleted]
    • petesergeant 20 hours ago

      > I refuse to believe there are adults out there where things like using a pen to write and mailing a letter are alien concepts that need to be learned.

      Some adults were born in 2007

      • bigstrat2003 16 hours ago

        Anyone, even someone born in 2007, should know how to use pen and paper. This is a basic component of being an educated person, not knowing how to do that is as shocking as being illiterate.

      • xmprt 18 hours ago

        Younger than Gmail, YouTube, and the iPhone.

    • dheera 19 hours ago

      Once I had to send an international RMA that they wouldn't pay for the shipping. It went something like this:

      0. Went to Fedex to check on the shipping cost for this tiny box. It was $120 so I passed

      1. Went to USPS, found that they were closed, the only option was a 30 minute line to use the machine. Lined up for 30 minutes, found that it the goddamn UI on the machine did not support international shipments.

      2. Went home to generate a USPS international shipping label. $25, much more acceptable. FedEx should be out of business.

      3. I didn't have a 2D printer at home, tried to 3D print the shipping label with 1 layer of white and 1 layer of black but it wasn't high resolution enough in the X/Y direction for the label to be readable so I gave up

      4. Went to FedEx to use their 2D printers but realized I forgot my USB drive at home

      5. Went home to get my USB drive

      6. Back to FedEx, realized I forgot my mask (this was COVID times, so no go)

      7. Went home to get my mask

      8. Back to FedEx, printed the 2D shipping label

      9. Back to USPS, found out they had no tape

      10. Back to FedEx to buy a roll of tape because I don't know where the hell else to buy tape same day, and all my tape at home are electrical tape, teflon tape, or Gorilla tape

      11. Back to USPS and the stupid package drop box had a mechanical issue preventing it from opening more than a few cm, not enough to fit my package

      12. Went to another USPS to drop the package

      • processunknown 19 hours ago

        > 3. I didn't have a 2D printer at home, tried to 3D print the shipping label

        This sentence really captures the absurdity of this story.

        • genewitch 18 hours ago

          Could have 3D printed a pen holder for the 3D printer and then used the 3D printer as a plotter to write the address on a sticker or the envelope itself.

          Right?

      • ac29 18 hours ago

        > FedEx should be out of business.

        Those crazy retail rates exist so businesses can get big discounts. The company I work with ships maybe half a dozen packages international with FedEx a year and they still give us like 60-70% off retail.

      • Suppafly 19 hours ago

        >12. Went to another USPS to drop the package

        You have a USPS drop box for tiny boxes in front of your house.

  • diggan a day ago

    > But I guess younger people and particularly those in tech may genuinely never need a reason

    I don't think it's just a age/generation thing though. I'm one year older than my wife, but I grew up in Sweden in the 90s, she grew up in Peru. Somehow, sending/receiving letters was something I've done multiple times growing up, but she never did, and wasn't until we were living together in Spain in the 2010s that she for the first time in her life sent a letter via the street mailboxes. She's not in tech either, if that matters, while I am.

    • rafaelm a day ago

      Probably because in our countries (I'm also from S.America) the reliability of the post office is questionable at best, so it wasn't something I ever really used.

      • Symbiote 21 hours ago

        In most/all of Europe, letter volumes are reducing but they're still used. Even where email is common, letters are usually possible.

        In your country,

        - how do you get a new bank card, when the current one expires?

        - how are you informed about a change like a price increase for electricity?

        - how do you pay for electricity? (Knowing how much to pay, when etc) What about an elderly person?

  • remram a day ago

    The paper size and foreign stamps make sense, but I must say the inability to use a pen surprised me a little more.

    • int_19h a day ago

      I'm not an American and I did write letters in my country of origin as a kid, but one thing that annoys me about US-style envelopes to this day is that they have no lines for address - you're just expected to line text up on your own correctly. If you're used to writing on lined paper because that's the standard in your country (including envelopes!), it can be frustrating.

      The envelopes I'm used to look like this: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B2%D0%B5...

      • rascul 21 hours ago

        > one thing that annoys me about US-style envelopes to this day is that they have no lines for address

        I'm an American and I've used envelopes that have lines to write addresses on. I used to see them every now and then. In fact, I have about half a box sitting in my filing cabinet next to me that I probably haven't used for years.

        Many envelopes don't have the lines, though.

        • [removed] 17 hours ago
          [deleted]
      • Suppafly 18 hours ago

        >you're just expected to line text up on your own correctly.

        It only has to be lined up well enough to be read by a human, they don't reject them just because it's sloppy or not lined up correctly.

        • int_19h 2 hours ago

          Yes, I know. It still offends my aesthetic sensibilities. ~

      • thesuitonym 21 hours ago

        We have envelopes like that, too, but they're not all that common.

      • cormorant a day ago

        Do they still say Министерство связи СССР ?

        • int_19h 20 hours ago

          They did for a few years after USSR was gone, as they were still going through old supplies.

          AFAIK modern Russian ones just say "Почта России", but the overall design is retained, including pre-labelled lines for various parts of address.

      • globular-toast 21 hours ago

        In the UK at school in the 90s we were taught how to write a letter including addressing and stamping the envelope. It's quite strange to see it done "wrong" like in the OP. You're supposed to have the first line of the address centred vertically, leaving the top half for stamps. At least they got the stamps on the correct (right) side, though. I've seen a lot worse.

    • loloquwowndueo 21 hours ago

      Being unaware of paper sizes is baffling to me - where I live, letter and legal paper are common but I’m entirely aware of ISO216 paper sizes.

      • oxguy3 20 hours ago

        One time at my old job I was trying to load the printer, and I said something like "Oh shoot, these are oversized sheets; I need the 8.5x11."

        My coworker looked at me like I was crazy. "The what?"

        "The normal printer paper, the 8.5 by 11 inch paper"

        "Why do you know the exact size of printer paper??"

        I did not know how to respond to this question.

      • Symbiote 21 hours ago

        In a country using ISO paper, national paper sizes of one of the few places not using this standard are obscure.

        I've never seen it in any office or stationary shop in Europe. It's available online, at a premium.

      • OJFord 21 hours ago

        They're not just uncommon, they're not used at all. You will only see US legal in the UK if an American company/person sends it to you, how often do you think that happens? I've had it maybe once or twice, but you could easily never see it, especially people born ~this century growing up with less paper of any size anyway.

      • remram 21 hours ago

        Odd take. It seems perfectly natural that the country using different sizes from everybody else would be aware of that fact, but that a country using the same size as 95% of the world might not know about the weirdo sizes used by those 5%.

      • reddalo 21 hours ago

        I live in Italy and I've never seen a normal "office" paper sheet which is not A4.

      • rswail 20 hours ago

        The problem is that the rest of the world is not aware of US sizes.

        Thus HP printers continually displaying "PC LOAD LETTER" on printers outside the US dealing with documents generated by people in the US.

      • cjs_ac 21 hours ago

        It's one thing to know that the US, Canada and the Philippines don't use the same paper sizes as the other 190 countries in the world; it's quite another to be given a physical example for the first time in your life.

        • loloquwowndueo 18 hours ago

          You missed at least one other country that uses “US” paper sizes.

      • globular-toast 21 hours ago

        It's exceedingly rare to encounter US paper sizes in the UK and I expect the rest of Europe too. I've only received these from two places: the FSF and Donald Knuth.

      • n3storm 21 hours ago

        True, any page oriented software like LibreOffice, Inkscape, Gimp, will show you US Letter sizes and US Letter Envelope sizes and you may have messed up with printing on wrong size... but as other posters say, maybe this days nobody prints on real paper anymore...

    • Gnuke 21 hours ago

      I wrote a letter to a friend last year. It was the first time in probably well over a decade I had used a pen for more than just scribbled notes or doodling. I made a ton of mistakes and I wasted at least a dozen sheets of paper rewriting it. Seems it's one of those skills that deteriorates without frequent practice, at least for me.

      • Suppafly 18 hours ago

        > I made a ton of mistakes and I wasted at least a dozen sheets of paper rewriting it. Seems it's one of those skills that deteriorates without frequent practice, at least for me.

        Back in the old days when people still wrote by hand, they also made mistakes, but just scribbled them out and kept going. Starting over was only necessary with doing something special.

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    • 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 21 hours ago

      Yeah that's crazy. I use pens to doodle designs or write little recipes or Kanban cards or index cards for what's inside a box... The author maybe does all that by typewriter?

      • slightwinder 20 hours ago

        Or they do it all digital, or don't even do it at all. Label printers and note-apps are very popular with IT-people.

  • 3np a day ago

    Sending physical mail is one thing. I no longer consider myself "digital native" after reading this:

    > Writing the address on the envelope was awkward, as I haven’t used a pen in several years; it took a few attempts and some wasted envelopes, printing the address would have taken less time

    • alabastervlog 21 hours ago

      I grew up pre-smartphone (pre-Web, partially, even) and even through college probably half my total output for school was hand written (friggin' blue book exams, LOL)

      Some time last year, when trying to write something by hand and finding it alien and awkward, it occurred to me that for probably something like 15 years, and maybe more, I've perhaps not written more than a hundred words (signatures aside) by hand per year.

      I have kids, so nearly all those words are on the stupid forms they constantly make you re-fill-out from scratch for no apparent reason at doctor's offices. If not for that, it'd be even lower. Some years I bet I was under 50. I go months without writing more than two or three words, total.

    • slightwinder 20 hours ago

      Even digital natives are using pens with their smartphones and tablets these days. It's just a choice now whether you use them. Though, not sure whether kids these days are still learning it in school.

  • rwmj 20 hours ago

    Disappointed that International Reply Coupons are no longer a thing too! I used one back in the 1980s to write to the authors of the Power C compiler[1] in the US about a bug (yes, a bug report by mail). I enclosed an IRC in case they wanted to reply. They were kind enough to write back, and didn't use the IRC (but sent it back). They did however include a floppy disk with the fixed compiler, which was nice of them.

    [1] Still around: http://mixsoftware.com/product/powerc.htm

  • kccqzy 17 hours ago

    I don't send letters by post but I often need to send packages by post. Perhaps it's returning some merchandise where the merchant didn't have free shipping. Perhaps it's shipping a security key to a close friend so I can have offsite backup of a key. When I moved, I got rid of my book collection by asking friends which books they wanted and I shipped it to them (media mail is cheap).

    It's efficient to transmit information over the internet, but it's still essential to send physical items by post. When I visit USPS branches, I always see plenty of people mailing packages.

  • Scoundreller 14 hours ago

    > Writing the address on the envelope was awkward, as I haven’t used a pen in several years; it took a few attempts and some wasted envelopes, printing the address would have taken less time.

    Sometimes I cut out my address from a bill and tape that on as my return address. I know it’s formatted right.

    I’d definitely do the same on a “self”-addressed stamped envelope that I need returned.

  • wink 4 hours ago

    I mean, yes it reads a little awkward, but not too long ago I had misplaced the stack of envelopes + stamps I keep in my desk drawer and I needed to send something by snail mail (hey, remember that term?) and yeah. I am not someone who takes notes on paper, so I'm holding a pen only about once a week (the years quoted in the article sounds weird even to me) and it was a bit of a task (the whole sending, this time, not the writing). Bonus points for trying to use up old stamps when they're constantly changing the needed amount every couple years - so I usually need to put about 3 stamps even for local postage. But I guess that's just because I'm cheap and don't want to buy "new" code stamps when I have about 20 EUR in old stamps I can still use up.

    Always interesting discussions with my wife who works in an office where paper mail, fax machines, and signing things on paper all happen multiple times every single day.

  • 0xTJ 21 hours ago

    Sending mail being a challenging or difficult thing does come across as odd to me, being in Canada and born in the late 90s. Sure I haven't mailed a letter in a couple years, but when I do the main hassle is just finding where I put my stamps. I can however understand that finding return postage would be a hassle; I'm not sure why the UK and Canada (amongst others) don't do IRCs anymore.

    It's also much easier these days to find out how to correctly format an address for a given destination. (At least for alphabet-based languages; I recently tried to decipher a Korean address in a business park and got nowhere fast.)

  • liampulles 21 hours ago

    Sending international postage in my country (South Africa) is not a very reliable process, so couriers and email are used quite heavily here instead. Its not necessarily an age thing.

  • SpaceNoodled 17 hours ago

    I think the strangest part is that it had been years since they had used a pen.

    • immibis 16 hours ago

      Keeping a pad of paper at your computer is one of those underrated things. You'd think the computer can record information just like the paper, and it can, but psychology is weird.

      • SpaceNoodled 16 hours ago

        Agreed. Grabbing a pen and a post-it is faster for me than opening a text document, and a pad of paper allows me to format and diagram things freely.

        The post-its can be sorted, stacked, moved, stuck to pertinent notebook pages, altered, and ultimately recycled when they are no longer relevant. It's much freer than a document on a phone or computer, where it can still be a pain to move information from one domain to another.

  • bradley13 21 hours ago

    Honestly, sending letters is increasingly alien: I rarely send one letter per year. This year I have sent two, only because I am trying to contact an incredibly old-fashioned directorate of the German government that doesn't seem to have an email address.

    The stamps I have, I bought years ago - by now, they don't cover current letter prices. I wind up putting too much postage on the letters, because I'm not going to go buy even more stamps that I probably won't need...

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  • drivingmenuts 21 hours ago

    I have a roll of Forever stamps, purchased years ago. I don't even remember why, specifically, I purchased them. In theory, I could post a letter on my deathbed (I'm Generation X, so it's not that far off) and be assured that the delivery fee is covered by the cost of one stamp. Unfortunately, most of the people I would wish to correspond with will also be deceased at that time. So …

    I leave it to y'all to monkey-knife-fight for the rest of the roll.

  • globular-toast 13 hours ago

    As far as I know there are still some things you have to post in the UK, like sending your cut up old driver's licence to the DVLA and maybe you still have to post your V5 when you sell a car. OP might not own a car or drive, though, so who knows?

    • desas an hour ago

      V5Cs have been online for 3-4 years now.

      You still have to send back your cut up old driver's license, though I have my doubts that someone is sat there checking and cross referencing each one they receive.

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